bold coyotes?

Discussion of the training, use, and management of guard dogs, guard llamas, guard donkeys, guard goldfish, etc.
Jon Carter
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Jon Carter » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:50 am

Actually what your dogs need to learn is to not chase the coyote. That would just be taking the bait and there will never be a fight. Mark Twain summed it up nicely in this short story in "Roughing It"
http://www.unz.org/Pub/TwainMark-1909v09A-00031
As Bill said, random thinning does nothing to help our situation here. It simply amounts to culling the stupid and the slow. I finally got the male half of the pair thats been working on us for the last year a few weeks ago. They are territorial and my best hope is that when I get the bitch they will be replaced by coyotes that are not experienced sheep killers. If the lgd's can convince their replacements to respect the territorial boundaries before they get a meal off us, it will be to my advantage to keep the new coyotes. We have about 10" of snow on the ground now so maybe I'll be able to pick up her tracks. It was the snow in Dec that showed where to hang the snare that got her mate.

Jon
Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from poor judgement.
http://jolefarms.blogspot.com/

Lana Rowley
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Lana Rowley » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:54 am

Snow should be nice for finding the den, if they are denned up over there already.
Lana Mockler Rowley
10-7 Ranch
Oregon

Island Shepherd
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Island Shepherd » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:40 pm


lovetree
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby lovetree » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:48 pm

Matt,
go to my webpage www.lovetreefarm.com and you will get an idea of what my dogs deal with on a daily basis...we have wolves, coyotes and black bear and occasionally cougar. We have a wildlife refuge that runs through the middle of our farm, On many occasions I can see and hear the predators, that does not mean that the dogs arent doing their job, we just have a helluva lot of predators. I run 8 dogs ( loose) at any one time...the average coyote pack in my area has been counted at 10 members. I dont have an losses so I consider the dogs doing their job. LGDs do not need to guard by taking chase, they can guard through intimidation and territorial justification.
Mary Falk / LoveTree Farmstead
home of the dual purpose Trade Lake Sheep and the nationally celebrated Trade Lake Cedar Cheese
NW Wisconsin

MattLynch
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby MattLynch » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:30 am

Thank you everyone for the advice, it has been a big help. I have decided that because I haven't actually lost any sheep to the coyotes that I will leave them alone rather then risk another pair moving in that could be worse. I am looking for a puppy now, I will probably get another pyr or hybrid and take it from there.
On Twitter @ ns_sheep

Tomas
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Tomas » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:15 am

As I was driving today, saw a healthy looking coyote casually cut across a wheat stubble field, and rather than avoid the only small hill in the area, it trotted right to the top, when it could have more easily skirted around the rise, and sky-lined itself for anybody (or animal) to see. Coyote was so unconcerned that it stopped for a moment and squatted to pee, and continued over the hill out of my sight. My dog who was with me spotted it immediately. Mr. Coyote wasn't acting like the clever, shrewd animal I am used to. Just kind of puzzled me. Coyotes I see stay low, traveling in valleys, and if they are forced to cross an open area away from brush and trees, they stop every few feet to scan the area for danger. Not this one. -- Tomas

Darroll Grant
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Darroll Grant » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:51 am

If the air movement was rising the yote could could catch odors from a bigger area on the hill top and also survey more country. It also scent marked the hill top. That odor would spread further from on top for specie communication. A female without a mate, but advertising for one?? Why hide if you are not harassed?
Darroll Grant
western Oregon

Tomas
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Tomas » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:03 pm

Yeah, the coyote must be at the top of the food chain in that part of the County. It didn't have a concern in the world. -- Tomas

Janet McNally
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Janet McNally » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:54 pm

I hope this works. this is a video (sound only) recording of a coyote challenging my dogs. The coyote is on the RR tracks on the other side of the road, while my dogs (far and near) are in several different pastures, are all toeing 'my' side of the road, because they have been trained not to pursue the coyote accross the highway (because a previous incident met with disasterous results).

My nephew says that the coyote is doing a 'challenge' bark. This type of thing happens primarily in Feb and March. Our collective guess is that the coyote is probably looking for a den site, and the dogs are in the way of a choice location. Perhaps a high coyote population, or wolves have caused them to be somewhat desparate in their search. IN the previous incident, the coyotes (all six of them) would take turns luring the dogs out onto the highway. I lost 3 dogs in just 2 days in this manner. I had to remove that family of coyotes as the LGDs cannot win a battle that involves cars. They were emediately replaced with more coyotes, but the new coyotes were quiet and respectful and did not mess with my dogs.

Currently we have a very bold coyote once again. He had been taunting my dogs every night. The local hound club put some dogs on this coyote about a week ago, and he has not messed with my dogs ever since, even though he is still in the neighborhood. This confirms my belief that hunting with hounds helps develop respect for barking dogs.

Here is the link to the video. There is nothing to see (the video will be black) just listen.



ps just double click on the black square. it will take you to the photobucket site where you can play the video.

Janet

MattLynch
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby MattLynch » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:37 pm

That's sounds very familiar! I also recorded sound only (it was dark) of some of the confrontations between coyotes and my dogs this summer, thanks for posting that!
Just to update, I have been frequently checking tracks and coyotes have not come right up to the fence lately but seem to be staying back at least 20m. We just got back from picking out a pyr pup, kind of. Not sure if we are getting a male or female. I want a male but because there is no relation to our current dogs my wife wants a female so we may have the option to breed our own in the future if she is a good guard. I have a feeling we will be getting a female when they are ready to go :D
On Twitter @ ns_sheep

Janet McNally
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Janet McNally » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:32 pm

Here is an interesting site where you can hear recordings of coyotes and other animals. It seems that the sound I recorded is identified as a coyote challenge bark. http://www.allpredatorcalls.com/foxpro-sounds-preview/

This same bark was used to lure my dogs accross the interstate a number of years ago. We thought it was just one coyote doing this, but it turned out the whole family (of 6 coyotes) participated in the luring of the dogs. They would repeatedly bark at the dogs (for hours at a time), and when a dog broke off the chase, the coyote would come back and yap some more until it pissed off the dog enough to give chase again.

One of the coyotes was an old geezer, his teeth were worn down to nubbins. There is no way he could hunt for himself, which means the younger coyotes must actually have been providing food for him.

I can only guess that this was a tactic was observed and learned by the whole family.

Janet

Tully Creek
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Tully Creek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:27 am

Thank you, Janet, for that recording of the coyote. I hear very that frequently, usually in the morning, but all year round.

The coyote ( it always sounds like one) is not uncomfortably close, but certainly clearly heard. The interesting thing is my dogs don't pay it much mind. My male LGD considers his the night shift and goes to bed not long after dawn. The barking coyotes are often vocal after his shift is over, and he doesn't care ( this dog also ignores howling coyotes. Howling coyotes aren't hunting. Now a little while late he will be on full alert and " seriously pissed off" for no reason I can tell. I figure quiet coyotes are hunting coyotes and he springs into action. Haven't lost any stock yet)

My female LGD will bark a bit if she hears a barking coyote, but mostly stays with the sheep, and doesn't really seem to think it is important.

my border collies ( one in particular) really HATE coyotes and will bark himself to exhaustion if he hears them. Again the coyote " challenge" barking doesn't get much response.

In the past my property has been the juxtaposition of three coyote packs, now I think we are down to two. I think a lot of the coyote noise has been just to confirm territory. It is rare that we have had a pushy coyote. Those end up pushing up daisys. We have lost nothing to coyote since we got the LGDs.

I find it interesting that my LGDs ( which are related to yours) seem to have no worries about coyote challenge barking. Maybe mine are used to dog barking. ( doesn't seem likely). Maybe my coyotes aren't terribly threatening? I do have a good group of coyotes in that reguard. My dogs would never follow a coyote challenge barking. Maybe do a territory woo woo woof back at it. Probably wouldn't even stand up. Would go back to sleep while the coyote is barking its fool head off.

I find coyotes fascinating. I also find the coyote vs dog relationship fascinating.
Jennifer Stewart
Tully Creek Ranch

Janet McNally
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Janet McNally » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:28 am

Jennifer, how close do your coyotes come to the dogs? Based upon tracks and sounds, mine will come within 100 feet of my dogs. I suspect this is why they are answering the challenge.

Janet

Tully Creek
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Re: bold coyotes?

Postby Tully Creek » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:20 pm

Typically the coyotes are probably 200 yards or so away. They have been closer, but that is rare. When they do come in ( or I suspect it is them that has the dog riled up) my male will chase for a bit, but he doesn't pursue them very far. Maybe 150 yards or so. If I go out with him, he will go farther. My female doesn't usually go with him, but I suspect if she does, they will pursue farther.

So I'm thinking my dogs are not being aggressively challenged, and lack the numbers to feel they need to put up a big fight. This is totally all right by me. I don't want them going out too far. I also don't want them to think they can take on the neighbors dogs ( the neighbors, and dogs, are constantly changing).
Jennifer Stewart

Tully Creek Ranch


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