NSIP and grass based producers

A forum for discussion of these genetic measurement tools.
RKerr
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NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:01 am

Has anyone who is a NSIP user found any trends in your numbers as they relate to a grass based system? Have you seen any trends in the elite sire/dams that are counter to what your system can support? In other words, have you experienced a "ceiling" on certain traits that can cause a crash of sorts?

I am asking due to what I have seen in the pasture as it relates to my flock and what I believe are mostly "intensive" producers on the elite lists.

Ryan

lambchop
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby lambchop » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:42 am

A couple of questions for you to better answer your question. First, how long have you been on NSIP? Have you been using NSIP sires? If so have they had high (elite level) EBV's. Environmental conditions are eliminated under the program, and should have no bearing on the comparative EBV's. We are not on NSIP, since we started on lambplan in 1999, and decided to stay due to links and genetics brought in from AU. What breed do you have? What specific trait are you referring to?
Paul Lewis
White Dorpers with Lambplan EBV's
www.whitedorper.com

RKerr
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:44 am


Peg Haese
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby Peg Haese » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:34 am

Ryan, this is going to vary from breed to breed as to how many elites are from grain-intensive operations and how many are from true forage-only flocks. Buy your rams and ewes from flocks that feed like you do if you can. Concentrate on the traits that will improve your existing ewes. It's only a tool after all.

The Katahdin breed is very fortunate to have so many flocks participating in NSIP, and stresses balanced traits. Others aren't so lucky.

I have heard it said that rams and ewes from forage-only flocks will do well in grain-heavy operations once they acclimate, but the reverse may not work as well.

Sorry if this doesn't answer your original question.

Ebenezer
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby Ebenezer » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:08 am

No EBV experience but plenty of Angus EPD experience. Weaning weights, Mature Weights and Maternal Milk will have upper limits on forages. You will see it with open females and reduced # of head that you can carry on the same land base. I consider maternal milk to be a production trait rather than a maternal trait because as you increase it above a learned level you negatively impact fertility. One does not have to travel very far to change what works because of climate, forages, stocking rates and management differences.

So do I understand that NSIP is less forage based than LambPlan? Are they not a combined effort?

RKerr
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:49 am


RKerr
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:51 am


Peg Haese
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby Peg Haese » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:20 am

I wonder if Woolpuller Bill is watching this thread?

Janet McNally
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby Janet McNally » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:40 am

Despite what the theoretical science says, there does appear to be a bias in NSIP toward the grain fed flocks, especially in reproductive traits, which of course, have a low heritability to begin with, meaning they are more greatly influenced by environment.

As to the question do ebvs transcend production systems, the above bias aside, the answer is yes, and no. You do have to be careful as to the type of sheep, i.e. it is important if you are a grassfed producer, that you are comparing genetics from flocks that are also grassfed, or have the right type of sheep for grassfed. i.e. a good grass type of sheep in a grain system, will produce ebvs that are valid across systems. But if you purchase a ram out of the 'show type' lines with very high growth ebvs be prepared to be disappointed in the results. Yes the growth will be there, but it will not be an animal that has any hope of becoming finished to a marketable condition within a grass based system. i.e. you will have all skeleton and very little muscle or fat.

Hence eyeballs are still important when evaluating sheep.

Janet

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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby woolpuller » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:36 am

Yes, Peg, I have been reading this section.
An example. I used semen from a ram that was raised in pastures in Western Australia, on lambplan, and in my own flock his data stayed the same. This animals data really helped my flock but brought some other positive items I liked. His ram lambs I used in my flock. These rams had higher Carcase plus data.
My feeling is that a ram brought in from another flock with good ebv will show up on his off spring better as the off spring are being used differently and adapt.
Even pastures in other parts of the country are different from pastures that an animal comes from. My feeling is try a son or grandson of that ram as they are on your feeding system.

RKerr
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:40 am

Janet, do you have flocks that you are comfortable comparing yours to?

Janet McNally
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby Janet McNally » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:41 pm


RKerr
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:23 pm


Janet McNally
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby Janet McNally » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:54 pm


RKerr
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Re: NSIP and grass based producers

Postby RKerr » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:40 pm

Janet, Thank you very much for that answer. That was the type of discussion I was looking for. Good point on the cows. The mature weight is a big one too. Having a 80-100 pound 60 day weight like I saw advertised does not help someone like me if it's momma was 250+ pounds.


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