another nsip type sale?

A forum for discussion of these genetic measurement tools.
jpa
Old Hand
Posts: 723
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Contact:

another nsip type sale?

Postby jpa » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:48 am

There has been some talk about having another sale modeled after the Center of the nation sale somewhere in or around Michigan. After reading Big Iron's post in the Bunker hill thread I thought it would be good to get some thoughts about the sale.

Is there a need for another nsip/lamb plan sale? What about sheep sales are good, as well as what is bad. What would be the best date that make the most since for both the seller and the buyer. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jason

Wclones
Old Hand
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:35 am
Location: Harlan, Ia
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby Wclones » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:52 pm

Jason

It is interesting that you ask the question. At the sale this year we had an opportunity to visit with Reid, Chair, and Cody Vice Chair of the NSIP board during the Friday afternoon meetings. This topic did come up and a lot of ideas was kick around. The Center of the Nation Sale featuring NSIP sheep will have it's 10 Anniversary next summer. Is it time for NSIP to take the reigns of this sale? Should it be moved to a different location? Should NSIP add more sales to make it easier for commercial producer to buy sheep? Could it be done over the internet?

Lots of different ideas. If you have ideas please share them with the NSIP board. The Spencer sale has worked well for a lot of people. Make Park and I are pretty proud of how it has turned out. Now what about the next decade.

Duane
Old Hand
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: South Central Minnesota
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby Duane » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:39 pm

So your thinking everyone (breeders) east of the Mississippi would sale in Michigan and west would sale in Iowa?

Darroll Grant
Old Hand
Posts: 3074
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:58 am
Location: western Oregon
Contact:

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby Darroll Grant » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:51 pm

Any thought ever given to having an NSIP sale at the MWSRS? You won't find more sale sheep or sheep folks at any other place in the US. It also makes better sense to haul to 1 point rather than 2 a few weeks apart.

Phone or internet bidding and possible rides to the purchaser.
Darroll Grant
western Oregon

Wclones
Old Hand
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:35 am
Location: Harlan, Ia
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby Wclones » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:16 pm

Duane

I understand that it would be a great central point. Can you sell production sheep with show sheep? I good friend said it would be like selling a 4x4 Ford at Mercedes dealer. I may be wrong.

Darroll Grant
Old Hand
Posts: 3074
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:58 am
Location: western Oregon
Contact:

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby Darroll Grant » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:00 pm

Sell production sheep in a separate category from the show sheep, but at the same venue. There might be some snickers for a few years, but it could certainly bring in some commercial buyers desiring to buy genotype and phenotype.
Darroll Grant

western Oregon

DonDrewry
Old Hand
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 4:03 am
Location: Farmington, MN
Contact:

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby DonDrewry » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:17 pm

Jerry, there's no reason why it shouldn't work to have a production type sale at the MWSRS. Using your car analogy, you might be totally right but look where those dealers are located. They love to setup shop next to each other. MWSRS is really a collection of several sales over several days, so view it like 10 car dealers next to each other. There are several reasons it's been successful but one of the reasons is they allow the delivery of sheep to occur that weren't sold at the sale. There are literally hundreds of sheep delivered to the sale that are then move to other trailers and sent to other parts of the country. It cuts down on the expense of going to the sale if you can haul sheep for someone else to or from the sale and it just adds to the reason to get people to got to the sale. Last year I went down to pick up a ewe I'd bought presale. I didn't buy any sheep but I was the runner up on several so it made the sellers some money even though I didn't spend any, (although somehow my son bought a ram).

There's also no reason I can think of that a production orientated sale wouldn't work at the MWSR. Every few years it seems a new breed shows up and it's usually a different collection of buyers and sellers. Bud Meade's goal is to sell sheep, he really doesn't care what breed they are or what their function in life is. I've been told that when the club lamb sheep started selling at the sale the existing show frame breeders were very skeptical of the fad and were quite open in their opinions that they would soon go away. For several years now the club lambs style sheep have signifiantly outsold the other sheep. They keys to having more sales are: 1) Is there demand for this kind of sheep and 2) Will consignors put in good sheep? If those two factors are true and the time and place aren't screwed up more sales should work.
Don Drewry

jpa
Old Hand
Posts: 723
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Contact:

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby jpa » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:42 pm

We have only taken part of a couple sales so take my thoughts with that in mind. As to some of your questions Jerry. My thought is that if NSIP really wants the program to expand there needs to be more than one sale (no matter if it is in Iowa, Missouri, or anywhere else). I am sure there are many ways of selling sheep, but the one time we went to Iowa I felt like the seminars were an important part of the event. My thought is there should be multiple sales in different parts of the country. Maybe ran and marketed by NSIP along with the regional state organizations.
Jason

Darroll Grant
Old Hand
Posts: 3074
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:58 am
Location: western Oregon
Contact:

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby Darroll Grant » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:15 pm

Larry runs the MWSRS. Bud has been herding sheep in the big pasture in the sky for several years.

A big plus for a sale at the MWSRS is the crowd. Educational seminars are possible. What better place to educate a sheep oriented audience. Emphasis on genetic improvement (good balanced numbers) resulting in more meat on the hook sells stud bucks and commercial bucks.

Paul has been selling sheep with Lambplan numbers for some time at Sedalia.
Darroll Grant

western Oregon

roadrancher
Old Hand
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:17 pm
Location: North Central Ohio
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby roadrancher » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:28 am

I'm sure if you talked to Bill Schultz, he would be able to advise the possibility, practicality and logistics of having a sale in conjunction with the MWSRS. He worked for Larry for many years and knows that sale very well.

It would seem as though some of the Ohio sales, in May, could be another option as it would be half the travel distance for East Coast consignors and buyers.

BIGIRON59
Old Hand
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:30 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby BIGIRON59 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:35 am

My thought's as well Darroll. I may attend several sales each year. But I WILL attend the Midwest. I have attended national sales of my breeds, in many venues. But the Most consistent is always Sedalia, for the simple fact that more people are there and can get sheep moved to all points.

I see that Dorset's now have capability to add evb's if that is your deal. Many breeds could I am sure. And the time is right. I can get them home, get the "ready" to breed.


I know the the "frugal" Midwest mindset is to buy the ram the day before breeding season. After all, I "might" find a better deal, and I don't have to feed him , until I need him. I changed many of my buyer's mindset a few years ago. My price is dependent on market price and weight at pickup, so heavier the ram, the more he cost's. I also add a 50 dollar per month fee on top, for rams not picked up by July 1st. So If you want me to feed him until you turn out, you will need to pay me a commitment check in May, plus 50 per month in July and august and pay for the added weigh the rams gains between those months. In essence you will easily add another 200 to 250 to the price of your ram ,if you do not take him by the end of May. I usually have a few extra ram lambs I keep, but the top ones are spoken for and picked up before I leave for Sedalia.

SFR usually has a "turn out" sale in August, so I can move any left overs through that Sale with no warranty. These ram will bring from 100 to 150 over market price , so the "bargain shoppers" will take advantage of that as well. Other wise, no discount on ram lambs in the market channel, as long as you do not try to run a whole set of them through. Although , I bought a set of feeder ram lambs this week at about a .75 cents a pound discount. So if you are a feeder marketer, it pays to band and dock.

That being said, I would think having more than one sale or moving the venue would add potential buyer /sellers to the market place. This time of year is the peak of county fair season. And I know that production sheep breeders despise that side of the industry. However Grandpa, who might be looking for a new ram, may likely be sitting at a sheep show watching his grand kids, during YOUR sale.


On That note, I got an Email from Clay Center today. Their "excess breeding sheep sale" will be the 5th of September. Again, a little late for me, but I likely will make the trip.

I am glad that producers have some vision, and at least try to market more breeding stock.
Starving sheepherder on the windblown tundra of Northwest Iowa

DonDrewry
Old Hand
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 4:03 am
Location: Farmington, MN
Contact:

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby DonDrewry » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:25 am

Don Drewry

R. Hamilton
Old Hand
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:28 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby R. Hamilton » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:55 pm

If one of goals is to appeal NSIP type rams to the commercial segment (especially west) of the sheep industry, there are some items that need to be considered. These items are not to take away from what was done at the recent Center of the Nation or past sales. These are items to help broaden the acceptance of production measured sheep to a wider audience who have become accustomed to buying rams from ram sales that have health and quality standards.

1) Health screen of all sale rams and ewes - You need to have a vet screening of all the rams including a B Ovis testing and even on the elite rams maybe a semen evaluation so you know the rams are at least fertile at the time of collection. Rams should have to meet a minimum testicle size (32 cm). The California Ram Sale has very tight parameters or rules on what is acceptable for having a ram or ewe in qualifying for the sale. As an example, no boil or abscess or scars, minimum testicle size and no eye problems or scarring. The health screening needs to be done by accredited vets and not the sellers!

2) Quality screen for feet and legs, structural correctness, and conditioning - I do not care what the EBVs are for a ram or ewe if it is not sound and have the appearance of being high maintenance or hard doing. Rams and ewes need to not be over conditioned or fat but it needs to be in a desired conditioning to helping minimize the stress of an environmental change. Structural correctness and body type can be a debatable topic and you can make a case that buyer preference will sift out the proper ones from the good ones, but from my experience in dealing with the California Ram Sale, you will do more harm to the reputation of a sale by lowering the standards for acceptability of structural correctness and do-ability. The quality screening needs to be done by buyers or individuals that known for their ability of being consistent and fair and with an eye for evaluating quality.

3) The sale management team needs to be consistent in upholding the quality standards of the sale by being transparent in dealing with both buyers and sellers. There needs to be transparency on how decisions are made in dealing with health issues, quality issues and other sale rule issues. As an example, my dad was chairman of the California Ram Sale for more than 25 years and during that time, he had to make some difficult decisions in backing both his vet team and quality team that had huge impact on the sale (as an example, he kicked out over 140 rams in a 650 hd. ram sale for cheating on IDs for B Ovis testing) but his handling of decisions only enhanced the rules of the ram sale to both consignors and buyers. From the reputation of fairness and consistency of maintaining quality standards, the California Ram Sale has led the ram sales across the US in having one of the highest averages for that type of sale each year.

4) All breeds of sheep should be treated the same with exception that wool breeds might be allowed to have a little longer fleece length than terminal breeds.

Some of these items might not be agreeable by some consignors based on the fact that most ram sales and purebred sales have no or very minimum rules that are enforced. The reputation of being a buyer beware sale would do more harm to NSIP than good in growing sheep industry acceptance of the program especially if NSIP gets involved in running ram or production sales.

Richard Hamilton

BIGIRON59
Old Hand
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:30 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby BIGIRON59 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:46 am

Richard brings up some valid points. I do not know the status of the B ovis testing for center of the nation, but do know that many states require this of any rams over 6 months of age.

I think soundness is emphasized more strongly by some than others.. What I consider a cripple, many think are sound enough. But then I don't have any of the foot and leg problems than many of my associates do in their flock. Nor the lambing problems.

Over and unconditioned rams is my number one pet peeve at sales. Most of the "highly fitted" arms will be of limited use the first year. And they would die , if turned out to fend for themselves. Thin rams simply will not work long, before running out of gas.

And I would venture if the goal is to get to "big operations " to make an impact on sheep improvement, then a location that will cater to that crowd , would be more western located. Perhaps those operations are really not interested in many of these type of sheep. Then , the more central location may work as it is. I would guess that many of these rams went to work in smaller flocks. Some are in my area, at people I know. In my travels , I make a point to stop in and "visit" , then I can see how they worked in the breeders home. Most must be happy, they seem to be repeat buyers, and that is a good sign. A repeat buyer is a happy customer. And that is the best advertising you can have. And its free.
Starving sheepherder on the windblown tundra of Northwest Iowa

lambchop
Old Hand
Posts: 736
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:36 pm
Location: Southeast Oregon
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: another nsip type sale?

Postby lambchop » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:59 am

I am not sure that an exclusive sale is the way to go. We have been selling rams with EBV's at the MWSRS for many years and at first no one showed any interest. As we kept posting info on the pens, more and more people would inquire and want to know what they were and how they works. As folks got better educated, people started to seek out our sheep and spend considerable time looking at the numbers. We now have a very good following of buyers that will contact us prior to the sale and ask about what we are bringing and to have the EBV's sent ahead of time. We also have many that now order rams based on EBV's to be delivered during the trip. My point is, that education and training of folks will work at any sale, and you will have the advantage of other buyers that might bid, then after seeing results, will come back in future years. Trying to get people to an NSIP only sale will take several years to get established, and many folks won't invest the time and money if their sheep don't bring top prices the first several years. Richard, once you get numbers going, why not take them to the Calif. rams sale and start educating the folks there?
Paul Lewis
White Dorpers with Lambplan EBV's
www.whitedorper.com


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “LambPlan and NSIP”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests