Bunkerhill entry

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Wclones
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Bunkerhill entry

Postby Wclones » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:18 pm

Bill and Susan just sent me a flyer on one of their entries. 2793 is a ram they used last year as a lamb and now will bring him to the CN Sale. With the data that they just submitted, it looks like 2793 has moved up to 3rd in the Elite Sire report. He should be a great reference sire or the flock that can get him bought.

Joe Emenheiser
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Joe Emenheiser » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:09 am

Even without the new data, 2793 is an intriguing kind of sheep.
Joe Emenheiser
Emenheiser Suffolks
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Wclones
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Wclones » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:26 pm

Joe you are correct. He puts it all together, including phenotype. It isn't often you have an opportunity to buy a young proven sire that is still climbing the charts. There is a nice picture of him on their website:

http://www.bunkerhill-farm.com/site/index.php/genetics

It will be fun to watch him sell. I'm just hope he goes to a NSIP flock.

Duane
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Duane » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:43 am

Where did he end up going?

DonDrewry
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby DonDrewry » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:38 pm

Duane,

I didn't hear where he went. There were several different people chasing him so he had a lot of interest. I believe I recall BI stating last year he thought the NSIP Suffolk rams were getting too big and I didn't think that was the case. Either they've gotten a little bigger or I paid more attention to them as quite a few struck me that they had "frameitis". To get the big growth EPDs it seems you are going to get really big frame sheep too and I'm not convinced we're chasing the right trait to actually maximize profit.

It was a good sale from my view. Probably more terminal sire buyers than maternal buyers but the Polypay sheep still had several rams sell for more than $1,000. I thought the Polypay and Suffolk ewes would bring more than they did. We bought the top indexing Hamp ram and Hamp ewe. At a minimum they should help establish our link to the pool and they are also likely to make some improvements to my flock.
Don Drewry

Duane
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Duane » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:53 pm

Yea, thought people where pretty aggressive for him. I bought Bunkerhill's top index last year, mine doesn't look anything like him. Guess I need a bushel basket instead of a ice cream pail. Thought all the Hamps looked great, more moderate.

cjhiemke
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby cjhiemke » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:32 pm

I think the ram had a lot to offer; he was a balance of top EBV traits in an appropriately sized package. I was hoping to buy him into the NR program, but the budget didn't allow.

Duane, I recall last year's top two BH entries being steals...I don't recall what you paid, but I think you got an excellent value.

Don, it was good to see you again this year. My opinion is that you could place the Suffolk into a frame, frame and muscle, and muscle categories...buyers' prerogative as to which rams within those categories best fit your system and goals, and each breeders prerogative as to how they best balance frame and muscle. There seemed to be more frame/growth oriented sheep at the sale.

The BH ram is destined for CO.
Cody Hiemke
Town of Pleasant Springs, WI
www.facebook.com/MapletonMyndShropshires

DonDrewry
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby DonDrewry » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:42 pm

Cody, nice seeing you. Excellent grilled lamb/ewe. One would think we'd all be selling our slaughter sheep for a lot more money if the meat was routinely cooked like that.

My concern on the "big" sheep is that there is a natural tendency to select the sheep to have the largest (or smallest in some cases) EPDs. Fast growth is a good thing but fast growth and 350-400 pound rams and 250-300 pound ewes doesn't necesarily mean more profit, in fact I'm pretty sure it means less. The show ring is great at chasing extremes. I just hope we aren't effectively repeating that. One of the things I haven't figured out yet, is why do the Australian sheep phenotype using the same genetic tool result in a moderate framed very wide terminal sire sheep where we seem to be biasing to a tall, long and late finishing body type.
Don Drewry

Darroll Grant
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Darroll Grant » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:22 pm

To me the answer is rather simple. Selection should be a combination of phenotype (visually acceptable) and genotype (balanced EBVs).

Practical Aussie sheep must be profitable on the vegetation in the paddock. Truck loads of hay and grain are not a viable option in a commercial operation.

Mentioned previously an Aussie invested multiple thousands of $$ in collecting and importing embryos and semen from a local Suffolk flock that had done well in national shows and sales. The report that I heard some years later was that after some lambs were born the remainder of the genetics were still in the tank. Those genetics had a very small place, if any, in the Australian industry.
Darroll Grant
western Oregon

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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby BIGIRON59 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:30 am

I was not there. I had other commitments. It will be the very rare ram that chases growth, that will not increase frame. Cattle found that out. And Reid talked about that on one of the webinars. Leachman Cattle pioneered the concept of "curvebenders" in cattle 25 years ago. They were some of the first breeders to put 100 plus yearling weights in frame 4.5 cattle. It can be done. But that was done by stacking growth and muscle to moderate framed cows. Not moderating large growth bulls.

High growth rates will decrease muscle . Enough has been done on that. The hamps may be in position to take advantage of this correlation, if breeders do NOT chase growth, but focus on adding muscle and keeping frame in check. At some point an outlier will surface, and that individual will change the industry. I would suspect that the recent round of very high feed costs will help keep growth in check. How much growth do we need? And will focus on efficacy and balanced traits more. Commercial people in my area have very limited success with Suffolk rams. They will take the higher livability of hamps and take more pounds to town at the end of the season. More live lambs will always trump higher growth, if the lambs have acceptable performance and carcass traits. Producers have also added enough maternal rams to the battery. The last 2 very hard winters have perhaps put a top on how much maternal power needs to be in a ewe flock. The ewes still have to have enough body to take some winter and enough volume to be able to live on large amounts of poor roughage(corn stalk based rations)

In visiting with several large producers, they have also perhaps gone to buying rams privately, or some have developed breeding strategies to help maintain that female base, with out constantly buying in rams.

While some of the top "number" sheep may have been at this sale, the sheep that some producers needed or wanted , may not have been there. And personally, with ram turn out looming fast for some, (next week). It kinda late in the season to be ram shopping. I don't breed for another 3 weeks or so, but most large commercial producers use some type of scheduled breeding season now, to move numbers through . Many will have rams running with the first gruop in a week . Buy that ram today, he may not be able to use him for half in any of the season this year. I like to have my rams in hand and under my management 6 weeks before turn out at least.

Just some random thoughts . The only sheep I was interested in were the Dorset. And with limited female offerings, other commitments came first.

If it was the Same lamb that Joan preped for her county fair both, It was some of the best I have eaten in 15 years. The only one that was on that level was when Ed Craig was alive and he would always grill for the National Corraidale sale. I can still remember Lester Phillipe, eating a "lamb chop" bigger than a small T bone. This thing was a 2 handed piece of meat, and Lester was sitting in a chair with his plate on his knees , holding this slab of meat with both hands. You needed both hands, because it was grilled perfectly and was falling part off the bone. This sale was at Altamont Illinios, and Ed had been "gather in up" meat for several weeks/months. He ran a small private stockyards. He had several yearling rams that either did not sale, or carried over, so were fed up and harvested for this feast. Ed was a master lamb chef and no one went away hungry. That feast was undeniably the best lamb that I had ever eaten.
Starving sheepherder on the windblown tundra of Northwest Iowa

Joe Emenheiser
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Joe Emenheiser » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:35 am

A few years ago when NSIP was transitioning from VA Tech to Australia, I wrote an article on what the Carcass+ index meant when it was applied to terminal sire breeds with entirely different genetic parameters than the Aussie terminals. (Genetic parameters include genetic and phenotypic variances as well as heritabilities for traits, and, perhaps most importantly, the correlations between traits.) One major difference at that time was that postweaning weight and backfat thickness were positively correlated in the Australian terminals, but negatively correlated in US Suffolks. The relationship of both growth and fat with muscle depth also differed between countries.

Of course, the Carcass+ index has changed since that time, and the weighting for fat depth has been reduced considerably while the weighting for eye muscle depth was increased. Still, I would always be cautious when using an index developed for another country's economic goals and genetic parameters. At the time (2010), it was foreseeable that selection on the Carcass+ index (as it was weighted then) would most likely result in US "frame" sheep becoming "framier", i.e., the combined effect of trait weightings and the inter-trait correlations mostly emphasized growth and late maturity. At the time, I concluded that an index developed specifically for US terminals would likely be most appropriate. I haven't looked into the new Carcass+ index or any recent changes in parameters, but without other knowledge, I would have the same concern.

Another potential issue is my suspicion that not all breeds within the US terminal pool would have the same parameters. In fact, I think it could be argued that the Suffolk breed, at least, has several breeds within one (although ram sharing in recent years has helped to overcome that somewhat.) I believe there is an important point to be made that the same index can very easily mean different things for different "clusters" of sheep. Of course that is a tricky situation because of the potential to reintroduce bias to the evaluation, but I certainly believe it is important to look at the individual EPDs that make up an index, and realizing that there are many ways to produce a high-indexing animal. The Bunker Hill ram indexed well because of his low fat depth, high muscle depth, and moderate to strong growth EPDs. The combination of the last two made him unique.

One final thought, to the point that current selection within terminal sire breeds is only leading to increased grain dependence. I firmly believe that the issue is not with the selection criteria, but with the fact that nearly all NSIP terminal sires are raised in grain-intensive environments. BLUP technology has the ability to account for environmental differences IF THEY EXIST, and the day that enough NSIP breeders raise a terminal breed like Suffolks on grass only (or in an otherwise non-pampered environment), and establish genetic links by using several of the high indexing rams, things just might shift a bit.
Joe Emenheiser
Emenheiser Suffolks
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http://www.facebook.com/EmenheiserSheep

cjhiemke
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby cjhiemke » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:33 pm

Cody Hiemke
Town of Pleasant Springs, WI
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cjhiemke
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby cjhiemke » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:37 pm

Cody Hiemke
Town of Pleasant Springs, WI
www.facebook.com/MapletonMyndShropshires

Wclones
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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby Wclones » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:35 pm

Reid and Terri posted a lot of photos from the sale on the NSIP Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/nationalsheepi ... entprogram

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Re: Bunkerhill entry

Postby lambchop » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:40 pm

Cody,

Thought you might be interested in seeing what may be our top ram for 2014. We are working to increase growth and muscle on the white dorpers with excellent maternal traits. We are getting close.

http://sgsearch.sheepgenetics.org.au/Se ... mnGroup=22
Paul Lewis
White Dorpers with Lambplan EBV's
www.whitedorper.com


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