Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

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Janet McNally
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Janet McNally » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:45 pm

I was visiting with a Booroola breeder in Uruguay and he was astonished to find out that their booroola dna analysis was about half the cost of NZ and that we did not have this available here in the US (that may have changed but I have not seen any announcement yet).

Janet
Janet McNally
Tamarack Prolific and Ile de France crosses
Minnesota

McMurry
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby McMurry » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:12 pm

I am curious - what breeds has Dr. Kennedy raised and from where did they come?

Please forgive me if I missed this in the posts.

clunmules
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby clunmules » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:36 pm

Bill Fosher wrote:While you're technically correct, I think there's a big difference between 100 percent RH with a dewpoint of 45 and 100 percent RH with a dewpoint of 72, especially if you're a parasite larva or a farmer trying to get your hay dry in two or three days.


Yes... as the dew point increases so does the water holding capability of the air. As a result, cooler air can not carry the same amount of water vapor as warmer air. So higher dew points are more favorable for parasite hatches and survival. At least it seems so for me.

Darroll Grant wrote:There is significant expense at sending DNA samples to the lab due to bio-security when I last checked. So we yanks dream on as we look over the 'fence' as to what is available in other countries.

Darroll,
I recently spent $38.00 to send in 5 DNA samples to Lincoln in NZ. For that price I could have included another 50. US Mail, International Priority. Sent it on a Monday and I had the results back within 5 business days via email. It only takes a drop of blood collected on a FTA card. Lincoln U lab can send them you if you ask.

John Bates a new member of this forum, can answer specific questions on the testing.
Jeff Rogers
Aspen Hollow Sheep Station
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Island Shepherd
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Island Shepherd » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:51 pm

McMurry wrote:I am curious - what breeds has Dr. Kennedy raised and from where did they come?

Please forgive me if I missed this in the posts.


He was best known for: Suffolks, then Rambouillets, and now Katahdins. With some others on the side (dorset, finn).

Lana Rowley
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Lana Rowley » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:10 pm

Bill Fosher wrote:
The fact that I think he is talking out of his hat on this one doesn't mean that I don't respect him or his contribution to the industry. But I do think that someone in his position needs to be more careful about what he says, and when he strays outside of his area of knowledge he needs to be corrected.



That sums it up for me. Respecting a person does not mean you never question what they say.

Then again, i live in the high desert where it seems it is pretty "easy" to raise sheep on grass.


PLUS we have surfing goats...not sure why anybody would live anywhere else!

http://www.aol.com/2011/11/15/surfing-g ... 1321369259
Lana Mockler Rowley
10-7 Ranch
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Peg Haese
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Peg Haese » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:44 pm

Dr. Kennedy was heavy into Dorpers before switching to Katahdins. I always wonder what breed will be next for him.
Peg Haese, PNP Katahdins, far SW Wisconsin USA

lambchop
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby lambchop » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:51 pm

He couldn't make the Dorper lambs work in a confinement full grain diet, they got too fat too quick. They were designed for grass and don't do well on a lot of corn.
Paul Lewis
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sheepfarmerbill
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby sheepfarmerbill » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:00 am

Bill: I think the name of this board should be changed to grassfed not production minded. Because if one talks against grassfed he or she is a nobody. I have 45 years of sheep production behind me, purebred , commercial sheep and feedlot and i direct market close too 600 lambs a year too high restaurants.I have seen too many grassfed lambs that where sh!t because of poor mangement because these people think it does not take work too get good results on grass. Bill Wood

Polypays4U
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Polypays4U » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:30 am

Lana Rowley wrote:
Respecting a person does not mean you never question what they say.

This is probably the most important thing said, so far. Best to do your own homework. I thought Phil Crome made some good points. I was going to saiy "Amen" when I first read it but didn't now, I have.

My sheep are better than your sheep. My management system is better than your management system. I live in the best area. All of these are opinions and not necessarily right. Well, maybe I live in the best area is. You can't beat western Colorado. :lol:
Bill Hardman
Uncompahgre Polypay Farm
Delta, Colorado
The western home of productive Polypays.

CDKfarm
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby CDKfarm » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:46 am

Sheepfarmerbill,
I would not say that this is a complete grassfed forum. There are several of us on here who feed lambs out on grain. While its frowned upon by some it works for others. And even though I feed my lambs out feedlot style does not mean I am not grass based. My ewes are out on grass 300 days a year with no supplementation. They are brought in for long enough to lamb and wean the lambs at 45-60 days then back out they go. I as well have seen plenty of junk grass fed lambs go through the salebarns BUT i will be the first to admit that we have a scrub pen every year. The bottom line is that every single farm in the world is different and while some people think they have it all figured out there really is no right way and no wrong way of doing things it is all personal preference. As long as the animal is healthy is all that matters.

This is also why the livestock industry is able to be defeated by groups such as Peta and Hsus is because they dont want to all unite. For example the pastured poultry people talk bad about the large operations and the large operations talk bad about the small people. Same in pigs the big confinement herds have reasons why they are better and the grassfed pastured swine people have their reasons why they think are better. Same with grassfed sheep and cattle versus grainfed. The bottom line is we need all of these operations in order to feed the world and supply all of the different niches. I wish that more people would realize this instead of pushing for it all to be one way or the other.

Bill Fosher
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Bill Fosher » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:59 am

sheepfarmerbill wrote:Bill: I think the name of this board should be changed to grassfed not production minded. Because if one talks against grassfed he or she is a nobody.


I will take any criticism as long as it's fair, and I dont' think that's a fair one. What has happened in this thread is that someone who has a position of leadership made a wildly incorrect statement about a production method with which he does not have familiarity. No one has said that Gene Kennedy is a nobody, or, for that matter, that his preferred method of production is a bad one. I have said that it would make me bankrupt, and I'll stand behind that 100 percent. It could be just as true that my method of production would bankrupt a farmer in the corn belt. I don't know because I haven't run the numbers, and I don't have the numbers to run.

It would be very easy for me to sit here and say, based on all the information that I have gained over the years from trying it myself and watching others try it, that outside the corn belt feedlotting lambs is a sure way to lose money on sheep, and that they'll have major health problems. If acidosis or urinary calculi don't get them, then coccidiosis will. And the capital involved in setting up feeding systems and storage facilities for feed will kill the budget if the animal losses and vet bills don't. But I won't say that because I have seen that it _does_ work in some places. And some of those places are outside the corn belt.

To me, what this board is about is helping people find ways that work. Part of that is to challenge demonstrably false assertions that a production system doesn't work because I don't want people to dismiss an idea based on an expert's opinion, when that expert has wandered from his area of expertise.

sheepfarmerbill wrote: I have 45 years of sheep production behind me, purebred , commercial sheep and feedlot and i direct market close too 600 lambs a year too high restaurants.I have seen too many grassfed lambs that where sh!t because of poor mangement because these people think it does not take work too get good results on grass. Bill Wood


I've seen some sh!t lambs coming out of feedlots too, Bill. It takes work to produce good lambs no matter what feed you're putting into them. Cut corners and the results show. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself. I don't know why the people who do a rotten job on pasture are seen as discrediting the whole production model, when the people who do a rotten job in feed lots are merely seen as bad operators.

I acknowledge that there are grass-fed advocates who will say that feeding concentrates to ruminants is wrong. They have some arguments to back them up, and those who market grass-fed lamb have some facts to back up health claims for their meat. But that is not what this discussion is about. This is about someone who should know better saying it can't be done, and several of us who have done it proving him wrong.
Bill Fosher
Westmoreland, NH

Lana Rowley
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Lana Rowley » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:07 am

Bill Fosher wrote:
To me, what this board is about is helping people find ways that work.



Spot on Bill, and that is why so many of us keep coming back.

I don't know how many ways Janet and others can say that one system is not better than another.

This thread now reads like "did not did too did not did too"
Lana Mockler Rowley
10-7 Ranch
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Janet McNally
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Janet McNally » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:56 am

It is curious to me, that the simple act of asking people to show their success raising lambs on grass is seen by some as 'bashing' the feeding of grain. I have read through this thread several times. Other than a few chuckles over Kennedy's statement, I can't seem to find the negative comments about corn fed lamb. Please show me the statements that bashed grain feeding.

I am thankful that Bill supports this forum. It has been difficult to carry on constructive discussions on grass production systems on other forums because it is so common that the discussion degenerates into an 'it can be done, no it cannot' thus derailing any effort to put forth constructive information.

If someone wants to start a thread on 'show me your photos of your successful corn fed lambs', I'm quite sure you will be allowed to do so without any problem.

Janet
Janet McNally

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Bill Fosher
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby Bill Fosher » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:01 am

I realize that I have said "it can't be done" to one production system, and that is the mythological 2X yearly lambing St. Croix sheep. I got called out on that one and had to explain what I meant.
Bill Fosher

Westmoreland, NH

kelpiegirl
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Re: Your photos of pasture reared lambs wanted

Postby kelpiegirl » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:06 am

This sort of discussion goes the same way in cattle. "Grass fed" gets bandied about quite a bit. There are grass fed, grass fed and "conditioned" or finished. In my part of the country, cattle are raised with grass, and at the end, supplemented with grain. I happen to *not* like strictly grass fed beef. I think that it is great if you can raise your livestock *well* on grass fed methodology, but I think that many people DO grass feed to the detriment of the stock (as Bill alluded to). I think you have to do what works for you and your area. This Dr. Kennedy sounds like he is talking from his experience, and that is 100% logical to me. This thread was started as a retort to what Dr. Kennedy said, so yes, I would say the very foundation of this thread *could* be construed as taking shots at what Dr. Kennedy wrote. But, several pages back someone already said what I just said, so no use in beating a dead horse- all you get are flies, I am told.
Julie
Cheviot Hills Farm


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